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Post by Neo on Sept 28, 2015 21:00:38 GMT -6
Hey GX, can you duel now?  Nope, I can't borrow the laptop right now.  I wish I could. Awww.  |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 21:41:48 GMT -6
So, Neo, some suggestions for the tournament.
Ban Tellarknights. It's like Deskbots on crack, but even worse. It's super easy to get a field clearer like JD in on the first turn, but unlike JD, it's also actually kind of worse, since instead of destroying cards, it returns them to the hand. That means that depending on how things play out, there's a very real possibility of an opponent clearing the field and then setting it back up in the same turn.
And, since no one likes Deus Ex Raigeki, ban that too. It's cheap, it requires no set-up, and it's way too strong.
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Post by empireoffire on Sept 28, 2015 21:45:52 GMT -6
And, since no one likes Deus Ex Raigeki, ban that too. It's cheap, it requires no set-up, and it's way too strong.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 21:46:56 GMT -6
So, Neo, some suggestions for the tournament. Ban Tellarknights. It's like Deskbots on crack, but even worse. It's super easy to get a field clearer like JD in on the first turn, but unlike JD, it's also actually kind of worse, since instead of destroying cards, it returns them to the hand. That means that depending on how things play out, there's a very real possibility of an opponent clearing the field and then setting it back up in the same turn. And, since no one likes Deus Ex Raigeki, ban that too. It's cheap, it requires no set-up, and it's way too strong. Neo duelled my tellars. He doesn'tthink they're terrible like that. He can change his mind. I dunno what Imma use for the tourney. Probably my best deck, HEROES. And honestly, burn decks aren't fun, but synchros are good at using them for advantage. Same with XYZs. |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 21:48:52 GMT -6
Does anyone actually enjoy Raigeki? It's excellent in pretty much every deck, has one of the most powerful effects in the game, and it's pretty much either "Use Shaddolls or be lucky to have a card that can negate it on the field".
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Post by GX1997 on Sept 28, 2015 21:52:34 GMT -6
Raigeki may be cheap, but it's fairly straightfoward and actually quite easy to counter, so it's usually not something worth getting upset over. At least not to me. But I'm the one who packs decks with Dark Bribe copies, so...
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 21:56:54 GMT -6
It's easy to counter, but it's even easier to pull off, and the payoff is absolutely ridiculous. Now, if it was a trap that was activated during the opponent's Standby Phase, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.
And if you save a Dark Bribe for a Raigeki, then you're allowing other effects to go off.
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Post by Neo on Sept 28, 2015 21:59:28 GMT -6
I've dueled Tellars many times, and I know exactly what XYZ you're talking about. They're a very strong archetype. Should they be banned though? No, I don't think so. I don't think Raigeki should be banned either, but I'll wait to see what everyone else thinks.
Also, I've freed my Lightsworns.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 22:00:13 GMT -6
But the thing is, it shouldn't be whether you can or can't deal with it, it's the effect itself.
Can you prevent JD from summoning? Yes, but it's still incredibly powerful. Raigeki even moreso.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 22:04:42 GMT -6
Tellars aren't just very strong, they can clear the entire field easily every turn with zero effort.
And Raigeki is literally just a "Oh, I can play this on my turn and you can't do anything while I take out 2/3s of your LP".
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Post by Neo on Sept 28, 2015 22:04:50 GMT -6
Golurk, if I banned things solely on the basis "it's incredibly powerful" and/or "incredibly easy to summon/use", do you understand just how many cards I would have to ban and how many decks and archetypes I would have to nerf?
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 22:06:30 GMT -6
But Raigeki is both. It's not just incredibly powerful, it's damn near one of the strongest cards in the game without any cost.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 28, 2015 22:53:46 GMT -6
The thing that makes Raigeki broken while only making JD overpowered is that Raigeki requires no set-up and has no downsides.
If you draw Raigeki, there's nothing your opponent can do before you use it except have spell-negating cards already set that haven't been used or certain specific cards like Ghost Ogre and Snow Rabbit which are everywhere already.
Cards like Mirror Force can be played around and aren't super devastating because of their nature. Raigeki has no strategy in avoiding beyond be lucky enough to have a negation card. Already up. If not, you're entire field is left completely open unless you can end the battle phase, which only stalls.
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Post by HHDeception on Sept 28, 2015 23:58:38 GMT -6
How to counter-play Raigeki: 1. Have a counter that either negates Raigeki, protects your monsters or turns monster destruction into an advantage. You have the same chance of drawing it as they do Raigeki. If they blow an MST on it then that's one less MST to mess up your other plans. 2. Consider your opponent's hand. Is there one card they've been saving? If you can predict it and bait it then you can make them waste it. 3. Have a plan to recycle cards. If the graveyard is not a resource for your deck then you are intrinsically using a weaker deck than decks that do. It's like not using the extra deck. 4. Until your opponent has used Raigeki, never over-extend your resource use in case of top-decks, or accept the risk if you go all in. Every card is only the field temporarily and has an average "lifespan", and the trick is extracting more value out of those cards than expected for their life span. 5. Realize that having Raigeki in hand means having one less card to wombo combo summon a thing that summons to mill to summon and destroy a facedown. First turn Raigeki in my fluffal deck? I would honestly have preferred a polymerization or other fusion card TYVM. Using Raigeki is a -1 for the user and up to a -5 for the opponent, a maximum of net +4 difference. But a good Madolche combo (my 9-step Anjelly + Mewfuille combo) can give me +5 and give the opponent -2 for a net +7, WAY better than Raigeki could ever do. Compared to modern combos, Raigeki is mathematically outclassed. ...and if you want to know what I mean by math (incoming wall of text): If you're wondering what all those "+1" things mean, it's Card Advantage theory. It assumes that having more cards on the field and in your hand than the opponent is always a good thing, and so plays that maximize your card advantage will eventually lead to winning. And no, it's not a 100% golden rule to making good plays, but I use it as a guideline. Obviously just having more cards wont drive your opponent's LP to 0. Good example? Scapegoat gives you +3, but it's not going to make you win.
To calculate, +1 whenever a card is added to your hand or field, and -1 whenever a card leaves the field or is discarded from hand (XYZ materials are still resources though, so they're "on the field" for my purposes). So my Madolche combo...
Summon Mewfeuille (+0)
Use Mewfeuille effect to SS Anjelly(+0)
Tribute Anjelly (-1) to SS Hootcake (+1)
Banish Anjelly (+0) to SS Messengelato (+1)
Use Messengelato effect to search and play Chateau (+1)
Overlay Mewfeuille and Hootcake to XYZ Leviair (+1)
Detach Mewfeuille from Leviair (-1) to SS Anjelly from banished (+1)
Overlay Anjelly and Messengelato to XYZ Tiaramisu (+1)
Detach Anjelly from Tiaramisu (-1) to bring Anjelly and Mewfuielle back from grave to hand (+2)
Shuffle 2 opponent cards back to deck (-2 opp).
+5 for me, -2 for opp. Net +7 gain.
And if I keep making plays like that I gain in Advantage, meaning that the longer you play against a Madolche player the more likely Madolches will win, and also why they're so OP.
As for a potential Fluffal combo...
Play polymerization (-1) to fuse Edge Imp Scissors and Fluffal Cat (-2)
Summon Frightfur Tiger (+1)
Destroy two of the opponent's cards (-2 opp)
Fluffal Cat returns Polymerization to hand (+1)
Return a card to the top of deck (-1) to SS Scissors (+1) from grave
Use polymerization again (-1) and fuse Tiger, Scissors, and another monster from hand (-3)
Summon 3-material Sabre Tiger (+1), and use effect to summon Tiger (+1) back from grave.
-3 for me, -2 opp. Net -1 LOSS.
Hence why Fluffals need some insane abilities, OTK potential, and Sabre Tiger has immunity to being destroyed. I technically put myself at a disadvantage bringing them out, so they had better be worth it. Also, this means that the longer you play against a Fluffal player, the more likely you are to win since the Fluffal deck will burn out eventually. Fluffals need to blitz people.
In comparison, Judgement Dragon does not gain any card advantage when played, and probably deals on average a -5 opp for a net gain of +5 (ergo better than Raigeki). When should you use Compulsory Evacuation Device? Well, using it gives you a -1 because it leaves the field after. So to maximize gain, use it when the opponent spends at least two cards getting a monster on the field (Synchro, XYZs, tribute, fusion).
And of course, since some cards activate in the grave, they still count as -1 when going there, but they can give you +1 from the grave later, so the math gets a little fuzzy. But like I said, guideline.
...I'mma stop being pretentious now. But I hope that was at least interesting |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 5:29:30 GMT -6
HHD, you're also forgetting that almost your entire argument can be applied to pretty much every card.
And you're math is off by assuming a few things.
First off, you're assuming that every card is equal. Secondly, you're assuming that using a card puts you at -1. Wouldn't that mean most cards are a -1 or 0? Plus, Raigeki Destiny need to be set, so MST is useless.
In addition, Raigeki is still a zero risk, massive reward card. It requires no skill, is completely devastating, and is only not banned because of the existence of decks which we have banned.
It's cheap, easy-to-use, horribly strong in any part of the game, and when used, almost always puts one person at a nearly non-recoverable situation.
Plus, your argument of "if you can't deal with it then get a better deck" applies to stuff like Dragon Rulers or Nekroz.
Finally, does Raigeki even do anything for the game? Is it at all fun or interesting? 90% of the time, it completely lot screws the opponent.
Early game it's "destroy your only line of defense and take out half your LP" and late-game it's "Destroy your primary line of defense and take out all of your LP"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 6:02:46 GMT -6
HHD, you're also forgetting that almost your entire argument can be applied to pretty much every card. And you're math is off by assuming a few things. First off, you're assuming that every card is equal. Secondly, you're assuming that using a card puts you at -1. Wouldn't that mean most cards are a -1 or 0? Plus, Raigeki Destiny need to be set, so MST is useless. In addition, Raigeki is still a zero risk, massive reward card. It requires no skill, is completely devastating, and is only not banned because of the existence of decks which we have banned. It's cheap, easy-to-use, horribly strong in any part of the game, and when used, almost always puts one person at a nearly non-recoverable situation. Plus, your argument of "if you can't deal with it then get a better deck" applies to stuff like Dragon Rulers or Nekroz. Finally, does Raigeki even do anything for the game? Is it at all fun or interesting? 90% of the time, it completely lot screws the opponent. Early game it's "destroy your only line of defense and take out half your LP" and late-game it's "Destroy your primary line of defense and take out all of your LP" Okay. Enough Golurk. If anything, I'm sorry. It was the only way at the time for me to get rid of your monster and get some lp damage. I'll take Raigeki out of alk my decks if you want. I'll replace it with break or something else. But please, just stop. |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 7:16:43 GMT -6
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about Raigeki in general. When someone wins because of Raigeki, you always see the other person talk about it here on the verse.
And why should I stop? I'm not insulting anyone. I'm saying that Raigeki is overpowered, because it is. If the only reason it's not banned is because of the current meta, and we're not using the current meta, then why are we not re-banning Raigeki? Plus, since the meta decks can deal with Raigeki, banning it only further elevates the meta, which again, we're not using, unbanning it was a mistake that only made older decks worse.
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Post by HHDeception on Sept 29, 2015 9:26:42 GMT -6
Yes most cards are -1 or 0. Heck, Polyermization is intrinsically a -3. MST is best used if you can prevent your opponent from minusing you with it (ex popping mirror force or protecting an extra deck mon from a summon trap). Otherwise it's just a 1-for-1 trade net +0. Back in the 2006 game it was very common for every deck to start running out of steam eventually (a format where Heavy Storm was a staple). Pot of Greed is a straight +1 and that used to be ok, but now it's banned since decks are good enough at creating their own advantage. Why is Dragon Rulers OP? Because they have so many graveyard and banish effects that almost never minus.
I do not think Raigeki improves some decks more than others is my point. Sure it makes Marshmallon less useful, but a lack of Raigeki makes Stardust Dragon less useful. If we want to promote burn and stall strategies then we should ban it, but I don't think that kind of favouritism is necessary.
And believe me, my new Ghostrick deck would love to ban Raigeki but I'm just going to have to deal with it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 9:37:15 GMT -6
Yes most cards are -1 or 0. Heck, Polyermization is intrinsically a -3. MST is best used if you can prevent your opponent from minusing you with it (ex popping mirror force or protecting an extra deck mon from a summon trap). Otherwise it's just a 1-for-1 trade net +0. Back in the 2006 game it was very common for every deck to start running out of steam eventually (a format where Heavy Storm was a staple). Pot of Greed is a straight +1 and that used to be ok, but now it's banned since decks are good enough at creating their own advantage. Why is Dragon Rulers OP? Because they have so many graveyard and banish effects that almost never minus. I do not think Raigeki improves some decks more than others is my point. Sure it makes Marshmallon less useful, but a lack of Raigeki makes Stardust Dragon less useful. If we want to promote burn and stall strategies then we should ban it, but I don't think that kind of favouritism is necessary. And believe me, my new Ghostrick deck would love to ban Raigeki but I'm just going to have to deal with it. Btw, forgot to say. I hate Burn strats. |
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Post by HHDeception on Sept 29, 2015 9:50:45 GMT -6
Also I'm gonna propose unbanning Heavy Storm because lol!backrow
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