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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 10:45:41 GMT -6
Raigeki is good for stall strategies, but it's good for everything else too.
I'm not saying that some decks benefit more from it than others (even though that is true), it's every meta deck has no problem dealing with Raigeki, and hell, it's even bad against Shaddolls.
But since we're not using those, we shouldn't be using Raigeki either. Single-destruction effects are okay. That's completely fair, but Raigeki clears all opposing monsters, and can be activated before you attack, meaning the opponent is left with absolutely zero meat shields while you can have a five-monster attack force. It's one card with no cost that widens the gap between meta and non-meta even further.
Also, Stardust is a poor example, since it was everywhere while Raigeki was still useful.
Again, if we're not using the meta that Raigeki was made limited for, then why are we still using Raigeki? Banning it doesn't promote stalls. Banning it promotes every older deck that doesn't have the sheer summoning power and control effects of decks like Shaddolls and Burning Abyss.
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Post by GX1997 on Sept 29, 2015 11:07:07 GMT -6
If Raigeki is limited then I'm okay with it.
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Post by HHDeception on Sept 29, 2015 11:07:39 GMT -6
In that case we should consider every banned card and construct our own ban list based on our own meta. And then we'd have to build special cyoa-verse decks in addition to normal play decks. It'd be a lot of work that I don't care to put in...but like I said, my contribution is unban Heavy Storm.
I'm ok with adapting to the current banlist. That's all. You can have an RP banlist too which I won't be using.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 11:12:54 GMT -6
Don't be coy, HHD.
Raigeki, as it is with our banning of Nekroz, Shaddolls, and other overpowered archetypes, has no reason to exist. It being Limited just makes it a game of pure luck.
And unlike HHD with Heavy Storm, I actually have a point and am not making ridiculous suggestions to demean the opposing side of the argument instead of actually bringing a point.
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Post by GX1997 on Sept 29, 2015 11:15:22 GMT -6
I use decks- particularly my Ante deck- that with just a tiny fraction of luck become so incredibly powerful and usable. It's filled with cards for that purpose. Are you going to ban those cards too?
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 11:17:07 GMT -6
No, but Raigeki isn't just lucky. It's immediately game-changing-ly powerful, free, and can be put in literally every deck to be used against every deck that's not Shaddolls.
Plus, I'm not the only one who has cried out against Raigeki before in the topic.
And Georgia, could you ask yourself this: Is Raigeki at all fun? Is it at all fair?
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Post by GX1997 on Sept 29, 2015 11:28:46 GMT -6
I forget Raigeki exists. There are cards with much better utility than it. I don't care about Raigeki, quite honestly. If I can't make a comeback after that it's because my opponent timed it well. Someone can use Raigeki and end up causing more trouble for themselves than it's worth just as easily as they can finish you off with it. It's a difference of knowing what to use and when. Don't confuse the opponent's good timing for a broken card.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 11:29:18 GMT -6
If that doesn't help, think about it this way:
Raigeki is so powerful that against the majority of decks, it'll be very hard for them to recover. Whether a spell or trap can be negated shouldn't determine whether it's broken or not, since almost every spell or trap can be negated. It's the sheer impact of the effect and how it's only limited instead of banned to deal with decks that we aren't using, and that it drastically reduces the effectiveness of many decks. It's an effect so powerful that it's either you lose immediately when its played or you use one of the 3% of decks that can reliably deal with it on a regular basis. Raigeki isn't just strong, it's strong enough to render a large portion of decks far less playable.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 11:30:22 GMT -6
I forget Raigeki exists. There are cards with much better utility than it. I don't care about Raigeki, quite honestly. If I can't make a comeback after that it's because my opponent timed it well. Someone can use Raigeki and end up causing more trouble for themselves than it's worth just as easily as they can finish you off with it. It's a difference of knowing what to use and when. Don't confuse the opponent's good timing for a broken card. Except that Raigeki's "good timing" is 80% of the time. It being Limited instead of Unlimited is its only "balanced" quality.
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Post by GX1997 on Sept 29, 2015 11:36:34 GMT -6
I forget Raigeki exists. There are cards with much better utility than it. I don't care about Raigeki, quite honestly. If I can't make a comeback after that it's because my opponent timed it well. Someone can use Raigeki and end up causing more trouble for themselves than it's worth just as easily as they can finish you off with it. It's a difference of knowing what to use and when. Don't confuse the opponent's good timing for a broken card. Except that Raigeki's "good timing" is 80% of the time. It being Limited instead of Unlimited is its only "balanced" quality. It's only game ending if the opponent is set up well enough and you have no way of coming back. That is not 80% of the time. No where close.
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Post by SummerCrow on Sept 29, 2015 12:05:44 GMT -6
Is Raigeki at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Judgement Dragon at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Honest at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Dark Hole at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Chaos End Dragon at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Sanctuary in the Sky at all fun? Is it at all fair? Are Toons at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Swords of Revealing Light at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Mirror Force at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Magic Cylinder at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is Stardust Dragon at all fun? Is it at all fair? Is anything HHD uses at all fun? Is it at all fair?
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Post by SummerCrow on Sept 29, 2015 12:06:43 GMT -6
I can go on and on and on, btw.
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Post by GX1997 on Sept 29, 2015 12:13:02 GMT -6
I can go on and on and on, btw. Well, that's a fairly long list, but thank you for illustrating how slippery that slope is.
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Post by Neo on Sept 29, 2015 12:25:46 GMT -6
Lightsworns!!!! I had no idea you could use the Lightsworn structure deck during the Rental Deck Tournament at the beginning of WC2011! Yay!!!
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Post by HHDeception on Sept 29, 2015 12:30:34 GMT -6
I want to duel nekroz and shaddols and things like that. They're challenges to overcome. And I have points for heavy storm and I was just waiting for you to bring it up so I didn't just randomly go off.
1. Backrow is more frightening and powerful now than Frontrow. I am rarely concerned with monsters since removing them is so easy. Heavy Storm would actually make me worried when someone starts setting up a big synchro. Yugioh should have impressive monsters IMO. 2. Leaving traps on the field is now relatively safe unless someone is running 3 MST, and 3 MST is really deck cloggy. I'd rather introduce Heavy Storm and allow more interesting cards into the deck than MST, and promote more thought in just laying facedowns forever. 3. Power plays are fun. Nobody enjoys having a boss monster immediately bottomlessed, so that should be made more difficult. I'd prefer a play-based format than a counter-play one (Unless I'm playing Traptrix in which case the point is counter play. But even then the threat of heavy storm makes me think more before just spamming trap holes facedown) 4. Heavy Storm justifies Raigeki even more. Less opportunity for traps means immediate removal is more valuable. And again, this puts more focus on the monsters.
Also, having 3 Raigeki would be more harmful to yourself than anything else. Fewer actual cards, and imagine opening with 2. They're dead unsearchable cards that don't lead anywhere on their own. I'd rather draw Miracle Fusion (in a hero deck) over Raigeki in a pinch any day.
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Post by empireoffire on Sept 29, 2015 12:45:33 GMT -6
Also I'm gonna propose unbanning Heavy Storm because lol!backrow Artifacts tho.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Sept 29, 2015 13:16:53 GMT -6
You know what?
Feel free to disagree with me, but that's no reason to be a total smart-ass about it.
Georgia was fine, she didn't act snide and "misquote" me to "prove" her point.
But you, Crow and HHD, you stepped out of line.
And a slippery slope argument contributes nothing. Raigeki is a huge power play in a single, zero risk card. No other cards are really like that. Even Solemn Judgement is far more balanced, since it's a single target and has a cost.
EDIT: What other cards have excellent field-clearing effects, no cost, no requirements, no set-up needed, and no downsides that aren't banned? What about cards like that, but can be placed into almost every deck with ease? Cards that require little strategy to use to an incredible effect? Cards that can easily and often completely change the side of a duel just by having it in hand? Cards that aren't entirely situational and almost always effective when not played stupidly? A card that was thought to stay banned forever but unearthed because of the advent of cards that we've banned? A card that always has a huge impact when played reasonably? A card that quite literally renders a very huge portion of decks much more inconsistent and less viable? A card that allows practically effortless OTKs?
That's Raigeki.
But here's what I don't understand.
You people are against the banning of Raigeki, when the reason why Raigeki is even legal at all is because of things we've already banned, and even then, Raigeki shouldn't be legal since that just hurts the decks that couldn't reliably stand up to it even more and not at all helps deal with higher-tier decks.
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Post by Neo on Sept 29, 2015 13:19:08 GMT -6
Does Daddy Dragon need to step in?
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Post by SummerCrow on Sept 29, 2015 13:29:16 GMT -6
Calling me out for being a smartass is one thing, but Mr Bunny's being perfectly reasonable.
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Post by HHDeception on Sept 29, 2015 13:44:31 GMT -6
Also I'm gonna propose unbanning Heavy Storm because lol!backrow Artifacts tho. Burning Abyss or Yang Zings vs Raigeki though. Also Artifacts need to be destroyed on my opponent's turn so running heavy storm with Artifacts can potentially be a big issue. Please tell me where I stepped out of line Golurk, because I can't identify that myself.
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