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Post by HHDeception on Aug 27, 2014 10:20:39 GMT -6
I'll make a separate sign-up topic for the upcoming RP soon. This topic is supposed to just be about the battle system.
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 12:45:46 GMT -6
The action points don't allow any determination of move effectiveness though. Deciding what hits and what misses would still be arbitrary. On the topic of actions per turn, a character can do as many things as the writer likes in terms of description and story. The entire description though would have to be represented by numerical Actions in the end. These Actions would either be direct counters (inventing terminology: Nulls) to opponent actions that lower their % success chance, or new independant actions (Attacks). Note that Attacks do not have to be aimed at the opponent or do damage. They are simply Actions that are not in response to an opponent Attack. Things like sprinting would only use energy if used as a Null or part of an Attack. Only things that use energy would be considered an Action. On your Turn, you would be allowed as many Actions as you want, but keep in mind that Energy management is very important. Turns would be structured as follows: Nulls to opponent Attacks declared. Die rolls. Outcomes decided. Damage taken. Attacks declared. This does however enforce a general flow of back-and-forth exchange. Of course this is all only in the numbers. The writing can include much more detail. I have a rebuttal. Which will come later. I didn't have time. For now: First, there should be a maximum energy investment. Name the last time you hit so,ething so hard you passed out. second, limit on actions per turn is unecessary. A limit on points spent per turn is for the system to work effectively. third, energy system is incomplete. for starters, the person with the most energy and health wins regardless of tactics. It is a pay to win system. also, with a health stamina system, you need more stats. A solid baseline is necessary for your proposed system to run off of lest it be baseless. probably most importantly, this system makes creativity entirely arbitrary. It becomes fluff. There are really only two options so everything else is pointless. Attack. Conserve energy. And nothing you do changes that. There is a back and forth exchange... And nothing else. At all. That's the problem. It is a pokemon battle with gambling. finally, RPs such as Nova are driven by narrative. Not gameplay. The person who needs to win, wins. If this isn't the case in an RP, then it isn't good. If a real battle happens between two characters, it is their arsenals against each other. Whoever cannot create a counter using their skillset loses since they cannot answer the attack. When this is not the case, either the other participants intervene, by unambiguously punishing the transgressor (usually the character playing the antagonist does this), or the RP will suffer from makor power creep and implode. You need to commit to a RPG or RP. There isn't a stable middleground outside of a CYOA, and there aren't really competitive versions of those. Well, those are my thoughts. |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Aug 27, 2014 13:12:41 GMT -6
Well, energy can be expended for another things, especially since abilities aren't just attacks. You can use energy to project a field, and the energy system is basically mana.
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 16:14:09 GMT -6
Well, energy can be expended for another things, especially since abilities aren't just attacks. You can use energy to project a field, and the energy system is basically mana. That's using energy to defend. He mentioned it already. When you run out of energy, you lose. Unless you are outmatched, about to die, or have so much energy nothing you do matters, there isn't a reason to defend. It just means you can't put as much energy into offense later. And if the latter is the case, just fire a space laser and it ends. It isn't mana either. It's aggressive gambling. And pay to win. They aren't abilities that do stuff. They are fluff on two basic functions. Avoid and attack. |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Aug 27, 2014 16:16:12 GMT -6
It's utility. It's the difference between casting Wall of Ice and Mage Armor. Plus, acting intelligently is also important, since everything has a different effect.
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 16:29:26 GMT -6
The action points don't allow any determination of move effectiveness though. Deciding what hits and what misses would still be arbitrary. On the topic of actions per turn, a character can do as many things as the writer likes in terms of description and story. The entire description though would have to be represented by numerical Actions in the end. These Actions would either be direct counters (inventing terminology: Nulls) to opponent actions that lower their % success chance, or new independant actions (Attacks). Note that Attacks do not have to be aimed at the opponent or do damage. They are simply Actions that are not in response to an opponent Attack. Things like sprinting would only use energy if used as a Null or part of an Attack. Only things that use energy would be considered an Action. On your Turn, you would be allowed as many Actions as you want, but keep in mind that Energy management is very important. Turns would be structured as follows: Nulls to opponent Attacks declared. Die rolls. Outcomes decided. Damage taken. Attacks declared. This does however enforce a general flow of back-and-forth exchange. Of course this is all only in the numbers. The writing can include much more detail. Spending action points on augmentation fixes that. Maybe 2 action points would return per turn. Or a set percentage. 1/8 sounds good. Max moves per turn has been increased to equal 4. That allows you to use an item, an ability, an attack, and move all at once. Dodging falls under movement. Use of equipment and abilities fall under use item and ability categories. Full defense recovers 1.5 times the action points normally recovered. Augment actions with action points. +1 adds to accuracy or power or defense. +2 overcharges the laser rifle etc. Borrowing from bravely default, you can use as many action points as you can, (maybe the max augmentation per round is equal to as many points as your starting amount), and can go negative. As long as your action points are not negative, you can act freely. If you are in the negative, your opponent can hit you for free. If you're still standing afterwards, you can continue attacking as normal. There are no max action points. They start at the same amount at the beginning of every separate encounter. |
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Aug 27, 2014 16:41:12 GMT -6
Os, I think it's the Kobolds' turn in SS.
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 16:43:23 GMT -6
It's utility. It's the difference between casting Wall of Ice and Mage Armor. Plus, acting intelligently is also important, since everything has a different effect. I dodge. Errything. There is nothing wrong with the above statement except the grammar and the spelling. It has the same effect as any defensive spell you've got. Unless that isn't the case. In which case, it's simply HD's arbitrary instead of everybody else's arbitrary. Which is fine by me, but not what the system advertises. Also, the system has a bit of a flaw I just noticed. Osric for example is a mobile character. That is literally what he does. He just had a wide array of weapons for nailing weaknesses. He has little stamina. Little health. Just a lot of offensive potential and speed. So yeah. Defense is based on energy. Offense is based on energy. If energy goes, it's KO. If HP goes, it's KO. All glass cannons can't get hit, and need to maximize their offensive energy use to be effective. Sucks for them. |
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 16:44:16 GMT -6
Os, I think it's the Kobolds' turn in SS. I know. They went. I'm asking what you all want to do next. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 16:44:39 GMT -6
I'm using Safari and Chrome sucks compared to it..
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Aug 27, 2014 16:45:22 GMT -6
Energy can be expended for dodging too.
Reducing the damage someone does or its hit chance shouldn't be just spending energy, you'd activate abilities, such as having a reactionary round (which was a big part in one of the earlier systems) to use them in, which would consume energy.
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 17:45:08 GMT -6
Energy can be expended for dodging too. Reducing the damage someone does or its hit chance shouldn't be just spending energy, you'd activate abilities, such as having a reactionary round (which was a big part in one of the earlier systems) to use them in, which would consume energy. Energy is expended for dodging. It's also expended for attacking. That's the point. Glass cannons are glass. Glass cannons are glass. They have enough problems without killing themselves as fast as they kill their opponents. My point is: There is offensive energy spending and defensive energy spending. That's all there is. The rest is just fluff, or utility outside of combat encounters. "There is no limit to how high you can boost your damage. You are only limited by your energy. Say you burn your whole energy pool making a 300@100% attack. Your opponent only needs to spend 100 energy to null that attack to 0% (and write some way for that character to avoid a supernova). And then suddenly you're useless because you blew everything in one attack. If you can boost your power obscenely high and also boost your hit chance so far above 100% there's no chance for your opponent to bring it low enough to avoid, you're strong enough to deserve the curb stomp." That is combat. Everything else doesn't matter. There is no strength, or speed, or defense or magic. It's betting. Put the points in the pot and hope you get lucky. It's strategic betting, but that's all it is. Unless you're going to die from a successful hit, there is no reason to defend because if they blow their points, and can't kill you, you can dispatch them as you choose. Now if you notice, that requires health to burn. Glass cannons have no health. They need to hit hard, fast, and first. But they need to split their energy between defense and offense equally so they don't die immediately. If they do that, then they can't fulfill their role as damager unless they have substantially more energy than others. So the answer to that is more energy. Then there is the opposite problem. They kill everything in one hit regardless, since nothing can take a hit from them. A punch, a fireball, a gun, a bomb, are all the same. A teleporter, some boots, a shield, and athleticism are all the same. They may do different things in name, but functionally, they are all equivalent. There are only 3 characters. High health, high energy, and average. |
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Post by HHDeception on Aug 27, 2014 19:39:25 GMT -6
Thank you Os, this is exactly what I made this topic for. And you got everything correct, combat is essentially strategic betting. And having higher energy will probably win given decent luck.
A clarification though. I never said that this was to be used in a game, just an RP. This is meant to facilitate what happens when RP characters conflict with each other. Its a battle system, and not meant to be a numbers game. That's why I am trying to put emphasis on the fact that this runs in the background of conflict. It can probably be min-maxed and broken, sure, but anything can.
It might feel like this robs your character of individuality, or makes effort in creative posts meaningless. I like to think the opposite. Your character is as unique as you write them to be, and creativity in writing is the end in itself. Just saying "I dodge everything" wouldn't fly in an RP without a battle system and it shouldn't fly here, regardless of the numbers.
One other thing. There will be ways to non-standard KO your opponent. If actions lead to flinging them out of an air lock then the fight's over. The numbers would say that you spent energy on that action, and your opponent's attempt to null it failed. With or without numbers, that is how this situation would be handled. And yes, this could turn fights into a race to find some sort of NSKO, but i think that's a fair option to spend energy on instead of attacking directly. Retreat is always an option too.
I accept that there should be a cap for the damage of attacks, scaling with max energy perhaps? Hit chance should probably be capped the same way. Nulls won't have caps since those are purely defensive.
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Post by HHDeception on Aug 27, 2014 19:54:36 GMT -6
On a phone making replying to everything difficult.
There might not be a middle ground between RP and RPG but I am definitely trying to find it. I'll need the cooperation of the players though, and if people don't like it then it could be scrapped. The point is that this system is meant to be fleshed out by narrative drive and therefore naturally sucks without it. If people aren't willing to do that then its not for them.
As for a weapons heavy character, this needs a clarification in "energy". Energy is just a word I chose to mean the resource pool. Its not your character's physical stamina or anything like that. In theory each weapon would add to the energy pool. If you use a lot of bombs, then your energy would increase to reflect that. If you don't have a lot of energy then maybe your bombs aren't that strong or steadfast.
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Post by HHDeception on Aug 27, 2014 20:01:01 GMT -6
One more thing [/Jackie's uncle]
I may save this for a future RP that isn't the LOTUS sci-fi one, since it's originally GCF's idea and he never intended something like this to be applied. I don't want to risk the RP on an experiment basically. Sign-up and concept explanation will go up Friday/Saturday so I'll reserve judgement until then.
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Post by Golurkcanfly on Aug 27, 2014 20:05:15 GMT -6
I'm fine with it. I just provided the base idea.
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Post by Osranger on Aug 27, 2014 23:56:37 GMT -6
That's what I'm here for.
This actually answers quite a few of my questions.
I have a few comments though. Energy probably should be exchanged for a different word.
I happen to like your method. Strategic betting is essentially the premise of Bravely Default's combat system, which I happen to thoroughly enjoy. It also can theoretically fit in any template of RP. I bring up Bravely Default because it probably has one of the most flexible battle mechanics I have seen in a game.
The implementation of it is questionable, and will probably need to acquire greater detail for it to hold on its own, but that's why I brought my scrutiny mallet of greater concern.
Aside from everything I said about action points, what I most highly suggest from it are a lesser magnitude of number for "energy" on the condition that it recharges over time.
Lesser magnitude simply because it is easier to work with, while still maintaining equal effectiveness. Each energy point could increase effectiveness by a set amount. Unless there is a reason for larger numbers to be there, it's just sort of arbitrary. Like the attack and defense in Yugioh being 13, not 1300 for no reason.
Recharging energy is more important though. This allows for a more fluid battle and promotes more resource management while not crippling certain play styles. Healers no longer are doomed to fail. Attrition fighters can build up a supply of energy by taking a beating.
Glass cannons actually have reason to not full attack immediately.
Instead of instant loss from total loss of energy, stunning would be more appropriate. No nulls are possible. No attacks are possible. The opponent can do whatever he feels like. Loss is only from HP reaching zero. Is it much of a difference? The person who runs out of energy will probably lose unless they have so much health they deserve to win. It also keeps ties from happening.
Allowing a single burst "second wind to give more energy adds a bit of depth to the system.
Also a general defense option that costs zero energy would benefit the system. Instead of nulling or attacking, the general defense option can be taken to lower the chance of successful strikes from the opponent by a small amount and recover more energy.
Now, you don't want an RP to be a numbers game for everyone while still having structure. Do you want to know how to do that? You control the numbers. Don't show anyone else. Just keep all of the numbers to yourself. Give us our energy, our health, and maybe MAYBE the strength of our weapons if we ask nicely. Then again, don't.
Just decide based on how the character is designed how fast they are, how strong they are. Because speaking from experience, you will want to know how much an unaugmented attack should do from person A, and how well person B will take the hit.
Who would win in a race.
Who has more powerful raw magic talent, even if we don't need to in order to play.
Fast characters should be able to count on being fast while not worrying about what their speed stat is. They should be able to count on being naturally faster than slower characters.
Well, that's easy. Just give the faster character a bonus toward his success rate. But when there are two characters of similar speeds, then what do you do? Do you just have fast, average, and slow?
A numerical value is very helpful in GMing. Solid data gives a baseline to your arbitrary decisions so you can maintain a level of consistency.
How you would go about this: just pay attention. When players make their characters, they emphasize certain traits that are important. Characters valuing speed should have a high speed stat, while another values defense.
They will shape their values through their gameplay and descriptions. And if more than one person has a fast character, you don't need to give them the same speed. If you make one slower, give them a boost in a second area to compensate.
Find what works for you. Just don't share it. Players are forced to play with only the knowledge they have. If you keep it to yourself, the actual mechanics can be as complex as you want, just keep the user interface simple and workable.
Fair warning. It's a lot of work.
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Post by SwordMasterEX on Aug 28, 2014 4:37:40 GMT -6
So is there a way to reduce energy cost like if your character is skilled enough to do something more efficiently than anothers or a 'level up' of sorts which gives your character more practice with it?
And how do you determine energy cost? A given action has set points needed to use it with circumstantial +/- or purely situational?
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Post by HHDeception on Aug 28, 2014 10:39:11 GMT -6
The reason the numbers are high is because I wanted the numbers as easy to figure out as possible. Energy to hit % is 1:1 and so is energy to attack power. Health would be scaled according to that. Hence why I instanly went to hundreds. Its easy enough to say that energy to hit % is 1:10 though since odds are nobody would be really put off by not being able to attack at 69%
I originally didnt want actions point because I thought they were unnecessary, not because I didn't think they'd work. Typically, RPers don't overstep their bounds when posting about what their character does next. They reply to oncoming attacks and then return fire in some way. Originally I did have an "actions per turn" framework. You get as many nulls as there are incoming attacks, and then 2 actions of your own. If you opt not to take an action, you recharge some energy. I think I'll go back to this and modify it with some of your suggestions.
I always had a "default" in mind. A minimum power attack can be used without spending energy, and an automatic small null %. The ability to recharge using items is possible, and with a spending cap per turn it shouldn't be a problem.
Levelling up is represented by increasing the max energy. So your attacks indirectly cost less. If I ever feel like implementing additional actions besides attacks and nulls, you'd buy them by spending max energy like skill points. These other actions would be like "convert energy to health" or "attack opponent energy instead of health".
Also, 0 energy wouldn't be unconsciousness. You must can't take actions, forcing you to wait and recharge a bit if you want to continue.
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Post by HHDeception on Aug 28, 2014 10:42:14 GMT -6
I'm relatively, scratch that, completely new to non-video game RPGs so the idea of running everything with hidden values seems kind of unfair to me. I might consider it some time, but when I have a bit more idea of what works and what doesn't.
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